Well after feeding raw here for 10 years and being on multiple raw feeding lists I have never seen nor heard of any dog perforating or tearing anything eating raw. There has been the occasional stomach upset, but no perforations that I have ever heard of. The only time I have ever heard that is from people warning others of the ills of raw- and within the context of other things that don't add up.
For instance- salmonella and e-coli are truly only going to affect the dogs with a weakened immune system anyway. Those dogs should not be on raw foods. Not that these bacteria are going to kill just any old healthy animal- nearly impossible and definitely almost unheard of, but that is the way it is portrayed to the uneducated. _________________________ Nikki Agrippina Mastino
Good lord! I leave you guys alone for ONE NIGHT and it takes me an hour to catch up!
In chronological order: 1. Pantheos - my snarky comment was for latinomasti, not you.
2. Googling something does not make it a "fact". I did a google of dogs as carnivores and the first is a tripod site with no sources, the second 2 are blogs (cited, but opinionated), and the 4th was wikipedia itself! -- There was a new NRC for dogs released last year, it's huge, it costs literally an arm and a leg and I've only gotten to spend time with it a handful of times but I think it's imperative to read the foundation literature to formulate any points on how a dog should or should not be fed.
3. On that note I thought Sue's responses sounded educated from a text book point of view, I do agree that she exaggerated a bit. Let me go back and look and I'll give some examples.
4. what I started by saying was what we ACTUALLY feed our dogs. We can all wax poetic about ideals and never get anywhere but what makes it to the dog bowl is not only meat. It's supplements, it's treats, it's a carrot to chew on and all of that needs to be taken into account.
5. Yes. The "pet food industry" is about making money. I believe that came up a bunch in my post. There are several different brands of money-mongering though. There's the Purina/Science Diet/Iams/ Nutro side of it that essentially make a hog diet (corn/soy) and make the package pretty so the consumer things is healthy. On the other side are the "organics" that spend a lot more money on their ingredients so that they can say it's "natural" which the average consumer will mistake for "more nutritious". It's these companies that I focused on in my last post because it would be the niche market companies who would even consider making an all meat diet. The problem is that the supplementing involved in doing that drives the price point up. What costs the most right now is ANY animal feed industry are vitamins, minerals, and crystallized amino acids. If you can make a diet where you don't need to add any of those 3, you're doing well for your price point (ol roy) but you've created a corn/soy mix that isn't all that digestible.
When I say the industry isn't going out of it's way to add a bunch of bull sh*t ingredients for no reason I mean that getting those nutrients from a plant source is cheaper than supplementing the crap out of an all meat diet. The point is the same though, something needs to be added to the meat to make it complete.
6. Dosa -- accept my most heartfelt apologies on the @ss's behalf. I don't mind his attempts at me, but to say those things about your dog is horrendous. Unhelpful. Mean-hearted. I'm sorry.
7. EVO is not an "all meat" diet. I feed it, and love it but it's not even close. True it's about as close as you get and is a grain free food (I would not consider a food that wasn't having seen what brewers yeast and rice hulls actually look like) the ingredients include 7-8 non meat based items and still is supplemented with chelated minerals and fat-soluble vitamins.
In the end, that people are even thinking about canine nutrition is a HUGE step in the right direction.
My hope here was to help get everyone thinking about what goes into their dogs stomach regardless of how it gets there. It's a HUGE topic, virtually impossible to get out in one thought but perhaps we can break this down into what we do/would feed our dogs (ingredient wise) and what we would not.
For me: I don't go near Menadione (artificial vitamin K), I favor beef over chicken, and would rather see egg protein and potato fiber than by-product meals and rice. I also feed dairy, and have never had a problem and I give veggies and organ meat raw. For me it's a nice way to break up the kibble monotony and my dogs live, LIVE for carrots. -- what makes them happy makes me happy. End of story. "Mais tu ne dois pas l’oublier. Tu deviens responsable pour toujours de ce que tu as apprivoisé." - Le Petit Prince
While I was writing that Poe learned how to open my fridge. She ate 15 large carrots plus the bag they came in, and was working her way through a container of yogurt. . . both items were on the bottom shelf.
I guess I'm glad I don't keep chocolate cake it there
"Mais tu ne dois pas l’oublier. Tu deviens responsable pour toujours de ce que tu as apprivoisé." - Le Petit Prince
Now that you allowed your dog to eat 15 carrots and a plastic bag… That is just as bad as wood chippings.. But you guys feed your dogs weird things… Now later on today when she takes a shit. Look at her stool. You will see undigested carrot all in her stool. If that does not tell you that a dog DOES NOT digest plant matter I don’t know what will.
Get over your Wikipedia… Please tell me what in Wikipedia did I post? Is this your way of making you feel better that an idiot like me is more informed than someone finishing a degree in animal nutrition.
Ok.. this time… I’m leaving.. seriously.. I am… See you guys in a few weeks….
If dogs truly could survive only on meat LONG TERM, wouldn't it make more sense for those companies to create an entirely meat based diet and sell it at premium?? It would be cheaper to formulate than importing organic this-and-that. They'd make more money, and the marketers would be able to claim being the only company to truly feed the dog what it needs (big bonus points on the PR front)
Without veggies, fruits, grains in commercial and home made diets dogs are deficient in fiber, iodine, magnesium, vitamin E, and to an extent vitamin K. I suppose you could supplement, but you'd want to buy the chelated varieties to assure the dog was actually absorbing what it needed without accidental overdose (magnesium can cause kidney failure) and those get very expensive very quickly. -- without supplementing (ie: the wild wolf) you are developing goiters and thyroid malfunction, constipation, nerve damage (vit. E), and probably most alarming is vitamin K deficiency which causes anemia and death.
I will address the above nutrients as they were specifically mentioned and where they can be found in the all meat diet. Fiber--The job of fiber is to promote regular elimination. My dogs eliminate every day, usually twice a day, firm and non-smelly poop. Excessive amounts of fiber often cause loose stools, gas and increased stool volume and frequency. I don’t want that so I see no need to supplement with fiber in a raw meat diet. Iodine--Fish, whole raw eggs Magnesium--meat, whole raw eggs Vitamin E--whole raw eggs Vitamin K--The bacteria present in a healthy intestine synthesize all the vitamin K a body needs.
Anna wrote ...
Another key consideration is that wolves, often classified in the wild as carnivores (we've already established that in captivity they are omnivorous-- hence the dog food.) don't live very long. Wolves, like dogs have the potential to live 20 years, but in the wild often don't make it past 5.
Where is the proof of the validity or truth behind the statement that in captivity wolves are omnivores. Feeding an animal grains does not change their scientific classification. Also the many other factors that an animal in the wild must contend with are the reason animals in the wild don’t live as long as they do in captivity--drought, food shortage, humans encroaching on and destroying natural habitats, natural process... are all to be considered when addressing why animals in the wild do not live as long as those in captivity. I do wonder though how many wild animals have cancer, thyroid disease, tooth decay, food allergies... all of which can be found in kibble fed animals.
Anna wrote ...
The main purpose of the pet food industry is to extend longevity and quality of life.
The main purpose of the pet food industry is to make money.
Anna wrote ...
Any animal (human or otherwise) can survive on an inappropriate diet for a short time, but they cannot thrive and they will not live out a full lives.
I agree here. If carnivores are fed a diet full of fillers and grains which they cannot fully digest they will not thrive and live out full lives.
Anna wrote ...
All of that is why BARFers add pasta and veggies,
I don’t add pasta or veggies
Anna wrote ...
why home cookers add supplements,
I can get all the nutrients my dogs need from an entirely meat based raw diet with variety of meats. I think I showed this above with the specific nutrients you were concerned about.
Anna wrote ...
and why the pet food companies spend more to bring your dog nutrients from enough varied sources that he might surpass his wild counterpart in potential.
I am capable of doing this myself as are most people without any nutritional degree. The idea of “balance over time” through variety is not hard at all. There are probably not many people out there that can say that every meal they eat is perfectly balanced as far as nutrients, but instead eat a variety of foods in an given time that balance out their diet. My dog’s diet is “balanced over time”. There are 1000's of people who are successfully feeding this way.
Shannon
Some of my sources if anyone is interested: Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health by Tom Lonsdale Dr Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Cats and Dogs Richard H Pitcairn, DVM, PhD and Susan Hubble Pitcairn Click me Click me
Lots of info Keep it coming....I wish the raw diet worked in our house. It didn't I tried for months w/o success. But Anna I thought Evo was the closest thing to raw in kibble form? Is that not correct? I haven't used it..honestly out of my price range...I can't spend 80 a bag either....GOOD GOD NO! I don't eat $80- in a week they sure aren't!
Lots of info Keep it coming....I wish the raw diet worked in our house. It didn't I tried for months w/o success.
Jessica
I don't know why raw didn't work in your house, but I will say the top 3 reasons people experience gastrointestinal upset when switching to raw are 1. Feeding to much raw food(feed only 2% of a dogs adult weight to start with in 2 meals) 2. Not including enough bone(feed the whole chicken instead of just backs, necks, breasts.... The whole chicken can be cut and fed over multiple days for smaller dogs) 3. Adding variety to soon. (start with one protein source and give the intestines time to adjust. Add variety after a few weeks.)
jessica wrote ... But Anna I thought Evo was the closest thing to raw in kibble form? Is that not correct? I haven't used it..honestly out of my price range...I can't spend 80 a bag either....GOOD GOD NO! I don't eat $80- in a week they sure aren't!
I am not Anna, but what I would say about Evo is that it is a grainless diet(grainless is good in my opinion). It cannot be called raw because in order to make kibble it must be cooked. It is much closer to an all meat diet than most kibbles though. There really are only a handful (okay maybe 2 handfuls)of kibbles that are in the same class as Evo. They can be expensive.
I do not spend nearly that much on my raw diet. On average we are able to feed one adult neo for about $21/week on raw. It does take time for someone new to raw feeding to find affordable sources in their particular area. When I am helping people explore or switch to raw diet I do say that in the beginning $1.00/lb average is a good place to start. As a side note I only feed human grade meat(except for tripe of course).
Now that you allowed your dog to eat 15 carrots and a plastic bag… That is just as bad as wood chippings.. But you guys feed your dogs weird things… Now later on today when she takes a shit. Look at her stool. You will see undigested carrot all in her stool. If that does not tell you that a dog DOES NOT digest plant matter I don’t know what will.
Get over your Wikipedia… Please tell me what in Wikipedia did I post? Is this your way of making you feel better that an idiot like me is more informed than someone finishing a degree in animal nutrition.
Ok.. this time… I’m leaving.. seriously.. I am… See you guys in a few weeks….
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