Nikki, Lynn- I would love to see the references on that 75% / 25% stat if you can find it. Anthony- I was in grade school in the 90’s as well, that is no excuse.
As per Saunders vet dictionary: " Hip dysplasia (" HD") is manifested (1) radiographically by a shallow acetabulum, a small misshapen femoral head and sometimes osteophytes, and (2) by a lax joint, weak rump muscles with or without lameness."
Translated- HD is present when there are physical deformities of the bones in the hip, and when the supportive structures (muscles, ligaments, etc) are not sufficient.
Part of the x-ray tests is seeing if the hip joint comes out of socket with gentle traction, this indicates subluxation could be occurring and is supposed to correlate with insufficient supportive structures . Subluxation is when the hip partially dislocates but does not completely pop out. Obviously that is not normal movement and over time subluxation can cause DJD.
So… if you have a dog that has no DJD visible on X-rays, has great muscle and normal range of motion but when x-rayed there is more laxity seen then in the average dog (lab etc) does this dog have HD?
Since there are not enough Neos to compare to with OFA and Pennhip it’s hard to know just what is normal. There is obviously something going on with the Neos connective tissue to create all that wrinkle and loose skin; perhaps the wrinkle creates a dog with a looser joint, perhaps not. I deal with the “my breed is special” phenomena all the time, most of the time it is hooey, but not all of the time.
How to prevent HD is another conversation entirely.
The beginnings of research and further studies are already in progress to look at these things in the Neo.
I'm glad to see this thread has continued! Gonnie and Robin, thanks for your replies!
Hi there Gonnie!, I understand how when a person or animal is at a heavy weight for their frame, that their movement is affected. However, when a dog is not overweight for his breed (let's say a 2 yr old Neo), and the OFA comes back as Fair or worse, then what is responsible for this? I'm confused as to whether you are saying that "loose hips" has "nothing to do with HP", or are you saying that "factors outside of genetics have to do with HD" (I understand this position re nutrition, injury, etc). My question is soley regarding how "structure" from birth relates to the HD ratings that are Fair or worse. In other words, are you saying that all Neos, because they are LARGE, will have "loose hips"? If so, then how can there be Mastiffs (which outweigh Neos) that can get Excellent - Good ratings? This is where I'm confused. Either "loose hips" (not " HD") is "a structural characteristic part of the breed" (ie, due to the breed's genetics), or it is "due to overweight issues". Right? or? I think the reason I'm so confused is because there are other AKC breed breeders who equate "loose hips" as being the same as " HD" -- and there are others who see 'loose hips" as "subluxation", and still others say that "loose hips" have NOTHING to do with HD at all. It's confusing....
Robin:
So… if you have a dog that has no DJD visible on X-rays, has great muscle and normal range of motion but when x-rayed there is more laxity seen then in the average dog (lab etc) does this dog have HD?
Since there are not enough Neos to compare to with OFA and Pennhip it’s hard to know just what is normal. There is obviously something going on with the Neos connective tissue to create all that wrinkle and loose skin; perhaps the wrinkle creates a dog with a looser joint, perhaps not. I deal with the “my breed is special” phenomena all the time, most of the time it is hooey, but not all of the time.
Question: The Sharpei has wrinkle (albeit that most of it seems to be lost once the dog is mature, but does anyone know if that breed has "looser joints"?
Gonnie & Robin (and to anyone else who knows): Are Neo breeders going to start using OFA or PennHip more in their breedings now vs before? Is there any trend in any one direction? And how best would a prospective "novice Neo puppy buyer" go about choosing a puppy who would least likely become dysplastic? I've seen dogs that had crippling HD (other breeds), and it is heartbreaking!!! Most breeders of other breeds have suggested looking at the ratings of the parents, and going back 3 generations (minimum). But how many Neo breeders test hips, elbows, etc? And do Italian Neo breeders test? If most of the Neos in the USA go back to Italian lines within 2-3 generations, how can a buyer guage what those dogs hips were like??
**I'm not even sure if HD is a problem amongst Neos. I'm just guessing it might be an issue, only because I know it is a problem among other large and giant breeds of dogs.**
Thanks! Pam
(ps: I'm having major problems trying to type my message -- the message box keeps "jumping" back to the top, as I try to write. ?? Anyone know how to stop this from happening?? lol)
**I'm not even sure if HD is a problem amongst Neos. I'm just guessing it might be an issue, only because I know it is a problem among other large and giant breeds of dogs.**
Work is currently underway to address that very question; but good research takes time.
Not many people test, thus the small sample size, so pedigree analysis is quite hard, esp. if there are imports in the pedigree. I would recommend visiting the OFA website (http://www.offa.org/) the stats on the breeds are available there (also gives you info on who has tested). You will notice the difference in sample size with the breeds-Chinese shar pei & Mastiff (9K) and the Neo (134), statistically HUGE, at 134 the results on the neo are barely significant. Also nearly 75% of bulldogs are dysplastic but just how many are crippled by DJD at age 8 or 10+? i.e. does OFA screening really correlate with the true health of the breed, I have my doubts.
I have seen and treated dysplastic dogs and I definitely don't want that for any of the dogs I own or breed but the whole issue is FAR more complicated then just breeding dogs with good+ OFA scores. Although having good scores can't hurt, but you have to look at the whole dog.
-Robin
[ Edited Tue Jul 22 2008, 03:01PM ] ***** Drs. David and Robin White Email Click me
New2neos - many breeders and owners do not test because they are afraid of the truth. No one wants to hear that their wonderful, expensive Neo has serious issues so it is explained away as "normal" or "loose joints" or some other etherial hogwash. Continue doing research and see if you can find some honest owners to talk to you about the issues...
I cant find that reference and i agree that not many breeders/owners test their dogs. Although I do know the H & E of both the parents to my female because she is a dog bred here. And that is thanks to the breeders/owners which the father was imported but tested by the owner. Many people here now put into the contract that if you consider to breed with your puppy at the legal age here (which in most states is 18 months) then H & E must be taken first before a decision is made whether to breed or not. Yes I know many still wont do the necessary testing but many are and will. Also when I tested my dogs I sent the results to the breeder/owner of the parents for their records. Here it is going through local council and higher that all dogs without papers will be spayed or neuted and they are trying to introduce heavy fines to anyone breeding without the necessary papers and tests. I have had many puppy buyers who want to purchase a pup ask me the hips scores of my dogs and I would say it is asked long before any other question. All we can do is test as responsible breeders and educate new owners the importance of doing this. I was lucky to purchase my female from a responsible breeder and also the stud owner which both will and do answer any questions or help me in anyway even if its a question in general not necessarily about their particular dog. I am following in those footsteps and I hope to do the same with new owners of pups I have bred too.
With nutrition and environment out of the picture, where it is assumed that the dog is maintained in good health, environment, and good nutrition than the one thing is left, Genetics. Genetically if a dog has no predisposition to HD than more than likely you won't have a problem. The difference between a mastiff and a mastino is the density of the bone. Mastiff bones are not as dense. The weight of the bone contributes to the subluxzation in the joints. The problem with new owners of a mastino is that they have no understanding of the ancestors health or structure of their dogs or what kind of problems they have produced.
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